Einhverfr, posted 10/08/09 18:24:16
Williamson:
I think the seed meaning is fitting. The question isn't just an issue of the stave itself though but of deeper roots to the phrase. My thinking is that, for this formula to have survived, it must have been referential to important concepts. We may have lost the referants to the ravages of time, but the reference survives.
williamsson, posted 05/12/09 14:44:19
so does all that mean that the seed interpretation seemed fittin or are we still investigating
Einhverfr, posted 03/19/09 21:36:53
My thinking is that *hagalaz ... kaldastr cornum..... is an inherited common phrase. The OERP tends to be less formuleic than the other rune poems, so the question is whether this phrase really is formulaic, and if so, whether it fits into a category of other formulae.
Also while there are some high-level shared textual constructions with Norse poetry in the OERP, I think the use of Hagalaz == kornum is a rare counter-example.
Einhverfr, posted 03/19/09 21:31:31
Ok, but metaphore doesn't get you all the way there. A formula tends to be defined as a set of words which is used repeatedly to convey a similar meaning. These are then categorized into a number of different types. The most common three categories I am aware of are simple formulas (eg. "Safe and sound," subdivided into further types, but all additive or subtractive), kennings (eg. "stallion of the sea," metaphorical stand-ins), and merisms (eg. "man and beast," aggregative metaphorical standins).
Hail == coldest of grains in both cases shows a common phrase repeated in different traditions, but it is not used in the manner of other formulae I am aware of, which is why I was asking. At first kaldastr corna seems to be a possible kenning, but the OE usage isn't what we would expect from a kenning, and seems consistant with the ON usage in non-Kenning ways.
All complex formulae are metaphorical, but this seems unlikely to be an exact match for existing types of these formulae.
Folcwald, posted 03/19/09 17:49:19
I would just say that its a metaphor.
When this was first pointed out to me, I didn't immediately make the connection to the rune poems because I had the Old English one in my head, which has whitest instead of coldest. However, if there really is a connection, that the seafarer has a line essentially the same as the Old Norse might point to an extremely archaic connection or it could point to a fairly direct one coming from cultural contact between Norsemen and Anglo-Saxons.
Einhverfr, posted 03/19/09 15:41:32
Interestingly, I don't think corna caldast or kaldastr korna can be seen as a kenning proper because it doesn't seem to be used in this way. I wonder if we need to define another type of formula for this sort of analysis.
Einhverfr, posted 03/18/09 22:03:32
hægl feol on eorşan,
corna caldast.
Comparisons in morphology and root to:
Hagall er kaldastr korna;
seem to bear you out.
Folcwald, posted 03/18/09 20:00:28
The idea of hail as "corna" also occurs in the Seafarer. It may occur elsewhere as well, perhaps indicating that this is far more widespread than just the rune poems.
hægl feol on eorşan,
corna caldast.
hail fell on earth
of grains the coldest
